Flash Research/Questions

[redline]

I've decided that since I'm not ready to spend the necessary money to get a decent wide-angle lens for my Canon 10D, that I'd invest in some flashes. I talked to Kameraguy a while back regarding the subject, so first I'll sum up what I already know, then compare some flash units. Hopefully this thread will help others who might be in the market as well.

What i'm trying to achieve, is to have multiple flashes setup off camera, but all triggered in sync by the camera shutter release button. I still want to retain TTL metering with an on camera unit (or dedicated flash unit).

Now the easiest, but most expensive way of going about this would be to purchse 2 or 3 flashes, and trigger them with pocket wizards, or a Canon ST-E2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=8480) One transmitter and reciever would set me back $295.00 alone. Plus another $184 x2 for the aditional flash units. Plus, if I wanted to keep TTL for all units I think I'd have to purchase one of these (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=64228&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation), but I'm not positive. Another product is the Microsync, an equally epensive option (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&Q=&b=1876&mnp=0.0&mxp=0.0&Submit.x=5&Submit.y=11&Submit=Go&shs=radio+slaves&ci=1&ac=). Also of mention is the high price of the flashes themselves. IMO Canon's flashes are rip-offs (see below comparison). SO, basically I'm going to try to acheive the same effect on the cheap.

First up, lets do a flash comparison. I'll be comparing flash units that are around $200.00 (Canon application).

First up is the Canon 430EX: ($234.00 at BHPhoto http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=397664&is=USA&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation ). From the Canon website:

This exciting new addition to the EOS System combines compact size and affordability with an added dose of features and sophistication. Improving on the previous model, Speedlite 420EX, the new 430EX can now be set into manual flash mode (full power~1/64). Flash compensation can be set on the flash unit, and manual control of the flash zoom head is now possible. Improvements in its circuitry make recycle time 40% faster, and since it is compatible with Canon's wireless E-TTL, it can be used as an affordable "slave unit."

The Basic stats are as follows:

GN (Guide Number): 141 ft./43m (at ISO 100); flash head at 105mm zoom setting.
Number of flashes per battery life: Approx. 200 to 1,400, with AA-size Alkaline Batteries.
Recycling Time: Approx. 0.1 to 3.7 seconds
Weight: 11.6 oz without batteries.

(Full Stats avalible here: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelTechSpecsAct&fcategoryid=141&modelid=11923 )

Second is the SunPak PZ5000: ($147 at BH Photo http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=177009&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation) Specs as follows:

GN (Guide Number): 165' (50.3 m) at 85mm;
180' (54.9 m) at 135m
Number of flashes per battery life: N/A
Recycling Time: 0.3-13 Seconds (based on fresh batteries & full power)
Weight: 12.96 oz without batteries.

Both units can be operated in full manual mode, TTL, and slave modes. So if you ask me, the Sunpak is the better deal. It offers close to the same performance as the Canon, for a cheaper price.

So far, the bill is $ 147.50 without shipping from BHphotovideo.com. I also said that I'm going to want to fire multiple units, so as opposed to having to purchase multiple SunPak's, I thought I'd search for some older, cheaper flashes that can function as slaves.

1.) http://cgi.ebay.com/SUNPAK-AUTO-THYRISTOR-144-FLASH-w-BOX-LN-1-00NR_W0QQitemZ150005073078QQihZ005QQcategoryZ48549 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem + http://cgi.ebay.com/Flash-Slave-with-External-Sync-NEW_W0QQitemZ120003119363QQihZ002QQcategoryZ30086Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem + http://cgi.ebay.com/Wireless-Radio-Remote-Flash-Strobe-slave-Trigger-Studio_W0QQitemZ150007998626QQihZ005QQcategoryZ300 84QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

2.) Another 144 http://cgi.ebay.com/SUNPAK-144D-Multi-Dedicated-Auto-FLASH-Nice-gl_W0QQitemZ110004440323QQihZ001QQcategoryZ48549QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem + above link +above link.

So thats an estimated $50-$80 added onto the tab of $147.50. What i'm wondering is first, if there are any problems with this setup , and second if there are any other suggestions on how to go about this setup. Thanks!

[Badinfo]

The recycling time on the sunpack is pretty dirty. In my experience, real world usage is always at the worst end of any range.

[kameraguy]

Canon flashes are definitey expensive. But the same can be said for their lenses. If you are inclined to go 3rd-party fo rthye lenses, then the sigma/sunpack is probably fine. But there's just that "uncertainty" things will work 100% with 3rd party items. It's personal choice as to go with a 3rd party solution if the results are acceptible. In my case, I tried Sunpak and Sigma flashes in the past to save money, and they were ok, but sometimes the exposure wasn't consistent. Hopefully the newer flashes by them are much better. The 430s are cool. But you can find excellent deals on used but not abused 550s which are much better for not much more nowadays. For example on sportsshooter people are selling off perfectly fine 550s for $230 on average all the time to finance the 580ex. These are the BEST times to take advantage of people who just love having the latest and greatest :D So in this context they aren't that much more than Sunpack/Sigma. If you can swing more for the 550 (which still is a GREAT flash despite the 580 being out) they have more power, have more control, and offer better caps for increased life than the 430. If you plan to use your flashes heavily, with battery packs to speed up recycling, the 550 is the workhorse to get.

If you want to do ETTL then get them with the ST-E2 and you are set.

Recycling (and batteries) will be a pain no matter what system you go, so maybe think about Quantum battery packs. IMHO they are a godsend. I use them for my portable strobes and never worry about recycling times, and they paid for themselves after two months of use easily.

These flashes are great if youw ant to go ETTL, but you can get some great deals on Vivitar 285s if you don't mind going the manual route. Get an inexpensive flash meter and a few wein optical slaves as well as external battery packs and you'd have a killer portable setup. Even better if you use pocket wizards in tead of optical slaves. Manual flash is much better as you maintain consistency....but you lose high-shutter sync in manual.

The one thing i don;t like about the Canon wireless ETTL system, is it is IR based...and for the most part it is line of site outdoors at a limited distance. The brighter the less distance you can trigger them. This isn;t much of an issue indoors where the IR can bounce off the walls though. But if you plan on shooting outdoors with large objects such as cars, you may find the IR distance limiting. You can totally use it for now, but later you will probably want to go RF with the Wizards.

But regardless of thes enitpicks with Canon ETTL...it's FAR better than the Nikon wireless solution! :p

Another option: Alien Bees with the portable battery packs. They are not much more, but you get real studio power on location for a reasonable price.

btw- I had Microsyncs before, but in the end the pocket wizards stayed and the microsyncs were returned. The MS were cool if you wanted something super compact, but the wizards are the standard which means you can always find receivers for cheap down the road. It's tough to say how popular the MS will be.

[redline]

Humm... so your saying its worth the extra dough to go with a used 550 over a new SunPak? And the cheap radio slaves are probably worthless because who knows if they are going to fire or not... good point. I might just do that! Another question though: If I bought 1 550ex and one ST-E2, could I fire another, third flash in "slave" mode even if it wasn't a Canon?

[kameraguy]

I guess I better not say the Sigma/Sunpack alternatives aren't good because i haven't tested them extensively. And granted it's my understanding Sunpak is the OEM manufacturer for Canon flashes. But I can tell you I have had my 550s and Quantum packs since 2001 and have never had any problems with them. And I think i;m a pretty heavy user of them, especially when light painting. Even though Canon doesn't recommend it, I usually burst my 550s at 10 pop intervals continuously at 1/64 power for minutes at a time...and luckily have never had them fail me yet. That's pretty tough on the caps since the Quantum charges them right back up almost instantly. I've been impressed with their robustness so far.

As far as cheap slaves, if you mean the microsyncs...they are actually far from cheap. Ar least when i picked up a pair they were $250 for the set....pretty much inline with the wizards.

It's nit-picking, but I felt the way to change the channels was super-cheezy. You press a small button with an "included" paperclip! And the hotshoe connection wasn't secure. No lock. I did not feel they were worth the money. Maybe half the cost they'd be alright.

As far as their performance, they worked fine. I shot my strobes through walls no problem. But I felt the Wizards were better in the end. They use standard 1/8 phono jacks so you can interface them to practically everything, the channel selection is a real switch, and they are secure with a standard locking hotshoe connector. They are a bit big (my only complaint), but they work. And if you plan on buying more stroobes in the future, you know you will always be able to find a receiver, either new or used. It's hard to say how long the microsync system will be around. If they go bust, you are stuck with a proprietary system.

As for ETTL with an ST-E2, a 550EX, and a stand-alone slaved flash, that won't work with ETTL. The slaved flash will fire prematurely when the ETTL preflash goes off. I can't remember if things should work fine in full manual, where the ST-E2 will trigger the 550s which in turn trigger a slaved flash in sync though...it might be possible as you eliminate the pre-flash.

[redline]

Thanks for the info... I've also considered portable strobes like Alien Bees, but dang, thats a lot to lug around! I suppose I need to do some more thinking about what I really NEED as opposed to what would be just 'nice to have' :p